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Philip Sweeck

11 Months Ago

Press, Pause, Play - The Digital Revolution

Interesting film / doc about the digital revolution. It's mostly about music and film, but also other arts which changed through digital.

"The digital revolution of the last decade has unleashed creativity and talent of people in an unprecedented way, unleashing unlimited creative opportunities. But does democratized culture mean better art, film, music and literature or is true talent instead flooded and drowned in the vast digital ocean of mass culture? Is it cultural democracy or mediocrity? This is the question addressed by PressPausePlay, a documentary film containing interviews with some of the world's most influential creators of the digital era."

Here's the youtube version of the film ( it can also be downloaded for free on the press, pause, play website, or either bought on iTunes. )

http://www.presspauseplay.com





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Phyllis Wolf

11 Months Ago

Sounds interesting. I'll bookmark it and watch it when I get a chance. Thanks!

 

Vivian ANDERSON

11 Months Ago

"The digital revolution of the last decade has unleashed creativity and talent of people in an unprecedented way, unleashing unlimited creative opportunities......"
I don't know if one can claim the art is 'better'.............
I do know, my creativity has been stimulated enormously by the digital revolution. I will never compete at the high end of formally/trained digital artists , but, the satisfaction I experience is enough , for me, at this late stage to even learn more than I know now, compared to those so talented they develop digital art beyond my comprehension.
Digital art is here to stay.
I love the possibilities ! .......It's never too late to grow and learn.
(Am resisting the urge to post one of my recent 'discoveries' of the potential of my own originals into digital 'masterpieces', lol)

 

Robert Frank Gabriel

11 Months Ago

Problem is most folks with a tad of talent now think they are good to great artists. They are not. Nor is there a market for the zillions of art works now being offered. What we have now are millions of people thinking because they can make an image they are suddenly "artists" and that they can just sell anything that pops of their cameras.

ON the bright side, all this digital creativity makes for better graphics and for jobs sitting at a computer creating graphics for greeting cards, newsletters, flyers, magazines, internet graphics, brochures and the like.

Or as Vivian says "I will never compete at the high end of formally/trained digital artists , but, the satisfaction I experience is enough"
Vivian, this is how I feel as well.

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

Vivian, I want to see your masterpiece :))
I feel a bit guilty for being amazed at times at what accidently came out of my camera :)))) but I think I also know the difference of something I have thought deeply about and worked hard at to something which was serendipitious ( though I love serendipity when it happens) ' at this late stage' you just gotta show us!

 

Vivian ANDERSON

11 Months Ago

Just 'slightly' over the top, Maria.................drum roll, puhleeeze............

Sell Art Online




http://fineartamerica.com/profiles/vivian-anderson.html?tab=artworkgalleries&artworkgalleryid=337731

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

I agree when they talk about the death of craft. People rely too much on the technology, they don't have to know much about anything since the computer can fix it, or when not the computer can create effects to distract and like this make the work "look better".

This also makes me agree about the mediocrity of art. Since any body can do any thing and spread so easily, people become used to it and accept it.

And it leads to the art appreciation talk. Art become noise, a way of distraction from ordinary life and no more something to be appreciated. In other words art became entertainment. It is about distraction and not about attention.

And finally about the perfection. The perfect is boring become when too perfect it become not perfect anymore, because it becomes not human any more. And it is known and debated since classic Greek era. Through history of art you can see it.

The point is the digital as it open many possibilities it is very limiting. I can't migrate to digital photography because the digital limits my craft, my abilities, and knowledge that I can use freely with traditional tools. And I feel the digital result is limiting too, the quality, the visual presence of the print, etc. The same way I feel the digital limit the sound quality of the music. The vinyl record produce a sound with much more life and presence while CD and MP3 has a empty and cold feeling sound.

Just my 400. :)


Marcio Faustino

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

Wow! Vibrant! :) Good for you for posting. Yes, your purple is always good but I am drawn to the green. I like the windows in the first third, reminds me of an empty school room with radiators, I like the way you ahve used space in all of the parts. The purple under the bright aqua, is very teasing, there looks like steps and I can imagine myself already half way up the steps!! Its difficult getting all of these colours and shapes to sit happily togeether but they do. Now, a question are they originally paintings that you have digitised or were they created digitally from beginning to end. Its great that you have embraced the creativity available with the tools of Photoshop or whichever prog. you use.

 

Isabella F Abbie Shores

11 Months Ago

Bookmarked, thank you

 

Vivian ANDERSON

11 Months Ago

Maria, thanks for your enthusiasm and encouragement. The original's are at my faa page....you'll see a big difference from them to now...those are the exciting possibilities I love.......not 'fine' art........but joyous !! I'll show them later........busy at dinnertime/grandgirls computer, Cheers...V

 

Wendy J St Christopher

11 Months Ago

Quoting Marcio -

"The point is the digital as it open many possibilities it is very limiting. I can't migrate to digital photography because the digital limits my craft, my abilities, and knowledge that I can use freely with traditional tools. And I feel the digital result is limiting too, the quality, the visual presence of the print, etc."?

------------

This is purely subjective, of course.

After more years than I'll admit to, as a 'traditional photographer', I was bored, bored, bored with my craft, even though I was already beginning to exhibit and sell my photos. Also, I never enjoyed the darkroom experience (only the results) and was frustrated by the amount of expense and volume of 'gear' required to get the results I wanted.

Discovering digital art and photo-manipulation totally resurrected 'art', for me, and set my life on an exciting, untested, path. I find digital work totally liberating, instead of limiting, and can create anything I can imagine -- and I've got an active imagination. ;-)

If limits exist, I've seen no hint of them yet.

I'm sure it helped that I was already 'the computer geek who always carries a camera'. It was, perhaps, inevitable that I'd eventually combine the two disciplines into a single passion.

I've met with plenty of resistance along the way, but have a strong skill-set and the strength of my convictions to carry me along. Luckily, I've found plenty of acceptance, too -- with new doors opening every day.

Has the "digital revolution" created a million others, just like me?

It may well have created a million others . . . but not one of them will ever create 'an image by Wendy J. St. Christopher.'

Only I can do that! ;-)

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

As I said "the digital, as it opens many possibilities it is very limiting". And as the guy in the video says about the music industry.

My path is the opposite Wendy. I started with digital photography and was deep into digital manipulation until I started getting bored of it. Since I started painting on canvas I missed working with material media, the craft. I could not stand in front of the computer manipulating or creating from it any more.

Some people like to buy frozen meal to heat in their oven or microwave, some others like to be served and some others just like to eat. And there are those who like to cook their own meal. :)



Marcio Faustino

 

Wendy J St Christopher

11 Months Ago

Opposite paths, Marcio -- leading each of us to the work we most love.

As for meals . . . I'm definitely one who prefers to be served (and cleaned up after)! :-)

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

Thank you for pointing this out, Philip. I've marked the site.

I started off in traditional media and switched to digital. I painted with actual paint and my first real camera was the Canon A1.

Since switching to digital, I have found the only limits I have are the ones based on lack of knowledge on how to do something. Wow! Coincidentally it's the same thing that would limit me with traditional media. Imagine that! I have found digital to be much more limitless.

If I want to draw or paint by hand, I have my Wacom Cintiq. If I want to model/sculpt, I have 3D applications for that. And I have the Canon T2i if I want to take photos.

I have yet to become bored.

Beginners, amateurs, and those without training or poor training rely on the technology to fix their mistakes or problems. Intermediate, advanced and professionals look to do their best work no matter what tool they are using.

It's funny when people talk about the perfect. I've seen some perfect paintings done with traditional paint, are they any less because they are perfect? LOL

There's not one single frozen meal in my freezer, when I want to be served I go to a restaurant but I prefer to cook my own meals and pretty much do that every day.

YMMV

 

Wendy J St Christopher

11 Months Ago

1. My first 'real' camera was the A1 also. The burglars took it.

2. There is no perfection.

3. I'm getting hungry. ;-)

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

LOL @Wendy.

ARGH curse the burglars!

I'm still trying to figure out what this perfection thing is. I've seen more than one person reference digital art this way and traditional art as less perfect, somehow, but yet it's worth more. I still don't get that.

Me too. But I have to wait another ten minutes before I can have breakfast. :-)

 

Richard Rizzo

11 Months Ago

thank you for the link, I just bookmarked it too.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

The perfection talk comes first with the copy of reality and second with the lake of "human feeling". It is not only limited to digital media since it is a subject from classic era.

You can't see the brush movements, the ink texture, the artist's hands pressure in a digital painting for example. The same way you can't have this alive feeling from CD records and you can't get the craft feeling from digital photographs. It all makes the work less present, colder and with less human touch. But it is a lond and deeper subject.

Back to the food example, you can't get the home made taste and freshness from fast-food meals or frozen meal. But many people don't care for home made flavour anyway.


About the limitation, it looks like you guys don't get the full idea. It doesn't refer only, or barely refer to the peace creation limits, but about the the hand creation limit.

Back to food example. You can cook a delicious and perfect look meal getting pre made ingredients. To cook a Pizza you can buy a pre made dough, pre made sauce, and anything else pre made and make a delicious pizza. And you can create endless alternatives, tastes, etc by combining or alterering them. But to be able to make your own dough, your own sauces, cook your own igredients you need more knownlodge and just to be able to make it without be dependable from pre mades and others industrialised foods you feel more free, unlimited. As you feel more free when you have your own souce of income without being dependent of somebody, the same when you don't need supermarket when you grow your own food, etc.

After all, the unlimited feeling creation from digital medias is just because it is easier, consume less time for more complexe works, less material, you don't dirt your hands. Aldo it demands less training and abilities with your. You don't need to practice to be able to draw a strat line or a perfect circle, and you don't need to practice using different tools. You just need a mouse and a keyboard. So it exige less knowlodge.

And with your computer knowledge you can not create without a computer. You can not make a beautiful draw occasionally anywhere if you don't know how to draw. And this is a big limitation. How to make electronic music without electronic instruments? But if you are creative, good and with some practice you can make music out from anything.

 

Wendy J St Christopher

11 Months Ago

Okay -- I'm not traveling to the land of Sweeping Generalities.

To each his/her own.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

All I am saying is that I agree with such points from the video.

In resume:
"The point is, the digital as it open many possibilities it is very limiting. I can't migrate to digital photography because the digital limits my craft, my abilities, and knowledge that I can use freely with traditional tools. And I feel the digital result is limiting too, the quality, the visual presence of the print, etc."

But of courser, each artist have their own objectives, tastes and vision.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

The perfection talk comes first with the copy of reality and second with the lake of "human feeling". It is not only limited to digital media since it is a subject from classic era.

You can't see the brush movements, the ink texture, the artist's hands pressure in a digital painting for example. The same way you can't have this alive feeling from CD records and you can't get the craft feeling from digital photographs. It all makes the work less present, colder and with less human touch. But it is a lond and deeper subject.


Actually depending on what application you use, you can see brush movements and the wacom tablets have pressure sensitivity. And you may not get any kind of alive feeling from a CD or an MP3, but that doesn't mean I don't. You're tying the emotions into the media and that's not how it works for everyone. This is how it works for you.

After all, the unlimited feeling creation from digital medias is just because it is easier, consume less time for more complexe works, less material, you don't dirt your hands. Aldo it demands less training and abilities with your. You don't need to practice to be able to draw a strat line or a perfect circle, and you don't need to practice using different tools. You just need a mouse and a keyboard. So it exige less knowledge.

And with your computer knowledge you can not create without a computer. You can not make a beautiful draw occasionally anywhere if you don't know how to draw. And this is a big limitation. How to make electronic music without electronic instruments? But if you are creative, good and with some practice you can make music out from anything.


The only thing that takes less time is the fact that I don't have to wait for paint to dry. My complex works are still time-consuming and I'm happy my hands are clean.

WRONG! It does not demand less training, that is a myth. I hate to break the news to you but even when I use traditional media such as a pencil and paper, I still can't draw a straight line or perfect circle. The media used has NOTHING to do with it.

Mouse and keyboard are not all that is used. You still need to understand light, shadow, composition, color, values, etc. All of the things that go into making good art. And you need to understand how the programs work just the same as you need to know how to use paint, brushes, pencils, blenders, etc. You don't just push a button and have art come out. You still need knowledge.

My not being able to make art without a PC is the same as you not being able to make art without a canvas, paint and brush. Big deal. As for not being able to do it anywhere I want, you can now use iPads to draw on.

Creativity has nothing to do with the media you use. It has to do with the person.

You're assuming we don't know how to draw? Dead wrong, again. Below is an example of one of my graphite projects I did.

The assumptions and generalizations your making don't apply to most of the digital artists. I don't know where you're getting these ideas, but it sounds to me like you know very little to nothing about how digital art is created.

Sell Art Online

Tell me something, how far could this person get in this project without knowing how to draw?



 

Philip Sweeck

11 Months Ago

It's not only the medium or tools used ( film photography or digital photography, digital painting or wet painting, ) but also the distribution of different media and that distribution has become increasingly more digital. So there are two aspects to consider the digital revolution in, one is digital as a medium ( like painting and photography ) and the other is digital as a form of distribution, including the distribution of non digital media or forms of art: being able to show ones paintings or photography prints on a website, eliminating the need of a book publisher or getting published to let others see your work, or having to show it in a gallery. Of course, just like in a book, the 'self published' images on a website are not the actual physical thing that one would see and experience when standing in front of it, but they can show just as clearly the expression of the idea behind the physical works. In case of books, they now have become an artform too for many photographers and artists, with the book as the final expression and object of art, and not only being a way of reproduction.

In art, many times the idea is as equally or more interesting than the tangible object or medium used to contain or express the ideas in. In contrast to Marcio ( though I can uderstand his view and know what he means ), I think the lack of 'tangibility' in digital is precisely what makes it so limitless and creatively potential in being simultaneously a way of expression and a way of distributing that expression in, with more freedom than could ever be done before. Yes, there's a good and bad side to that limitlessness, but that depends mainly on the artist's own limits, or how willing the artist is to be limitless.

 

Wendy J St Christopher

11 Months Ago

"I think the lack of 'tangibility' in digital is precisely what makes it so limitless and creatively potential in being simultaneously a way of expression and a way of distributing that expression in, with more freedom than could ever be done before. Yes, there's a good and bad side to that limitlessness, but that depends mainly on the artist's own limits, or how willing the artist is to be limitless."


Agreed!

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

I love that I can see works like this at the touch of a button, BUT, I would like more to walk around it and feel the power of passion for books that this artist thrusts at us out of a window. I can clearly see her ideas and imagination at work , but this works needs to experienced physically and emotionally too. Google Alicia Martin book sculptures.
As I am studying online at the moment I have to say some of its limitlessness' are more than embraceable.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

Actually depending on what application you use, you can see brush movements and the wacom tablets have pressure sensitivity. And you may not get any kind of alive feeling from a CD or an MP3, but that doesn't mean I don't. You're tying the emotions into the media and that's not how it works for everyone. This is how it works for you.

No it is not how it works for me. It is how it is. Otherwise it would be the same to say that you can see the large format dynamic range quality in small format photographs, and I only see higher higher dynamic range in large format because it how it works for me. Not true at all. And it leads to the distraction issue.

Everything else you say are just no sense that has nothing to do what I am talking about. It sounds you talk more to you than to me.



The problem of talk about media is that people don't like to hear about the down sides of their media choice. Specially people who works with new medias like digital or new art forms. And instead of a talk it becomes a digital or new art form artists denning the down sides of their choices. As if they had to defend themselves from a suppose attack. And lies. O things likes "are you supposing digital artists doesn't know how to draw?". Etc

There is no perfect media. No superior media, every media have their advantage and disadvantage.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

No it is not how it works for me. It is how it is. Otherwise it would be the same to say that you can see the large format dynamic range quality in small format photographs, and I only see higher higher dynamic range in large format because it how it works for me. Not true at all. And it leads to the distraction issue.

Everything else you say are just no sense that has nothing to do what I am talking about. It sounds you talk more to you than to me.


You haven't made sense to me yet. So don't feel bad!

The problem of talk about media is that people don't like to hear about the down sides of their media choice. Specially people who works with new medias like digital or new art forms. And instead of a talk it becomes a digital or new art form artists denning the down sides of their choices. As if they had to defend themselves from a suppose attack. And lies. O things likes "are you supposing digital artists doesn't know how to draw?". Etc

There is no perfect media. No superior media, every media have their advantage and disadvantage.


I already acknowledge the down side of my media, but you haven't stated it. I don't find anything that limits me in what I do. The down side to digital media is there is no original like there is with a painting. That's it. I never said digital was superior, at all. You were the one who said it's perfect not me.

So as far as I'm concerned, all you've done is spouted nonsense.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

I never said digital was superior

And I never said you have said it. While you give your own interpretation and take everything personal it will be not possible to share ideas with you, and it will not make sense to you either because you don't want to.

I am leaving now and I will be back some day to annoy some people again. :)

Take care.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

And I never said you have said it. While you give your own interpretation and take everything personal it will be not possible to share ideas with you, and it will not make sense to you either because you don't want to.

I am leaving now and I will be back some day to annoy some people again. :)

Take care.


Actually, it doesn't make sense to me because you haven't stated anything sensible. :-)

You stated generalities that you believe to be true because they apply to you. You're assuming they apply to everyone else. Most of what you've said doesn't apply to me.

Bye!

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

@Philip - Just curious, do you feel any type of disconnect from your work when working digitally? I know that I don't. No matter what media I use, I feel very connected emotionally and physically to what I do.

 

Philip Sweeck

11 Months Ago

No, not specifically when working digitally. But I find it hard to separate 'feeling' from 'work' in the question and the answer to it ( it's almost like asking: "do you feel a disconnect with the feeling". But there can only be one feeling, whether it's one of connection or disconnection ). The work unfolds from the feeling and the feeling enfolds the work. It depends on what kind of work it is, but I may feel whatever it is that made me make a particular work, which can include a feeling of disconnect. But the medium used does not determine the feelings expressed in and through it, but only the form ( or formlessness ) of the expression.

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

Can you expand on, 'but only the form (or formlessness) of the expression?
I am interested in what you are saying here. You are always going for the core.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

So the medium used doesn't determine your feelings for the piece?

For me I know it doesn't. Whether I draw with graphite or a tablet, the feelings are there.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

Roseann, you are right. What I say makes no sense because dynamic range is a myth as well as real physical texture perception and so on. The only relation the artist has to his work is the final appearance and result and any other experience artists talk about are just lies. If I and my friend can't see it doesn't exist. Therefore I will not listen nor try to understand. And I will not ignore. I will ague against because everybody must know theses people are wrong. ;)

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

Marcio - Argue all you like. It's nice of you to suggest that I am a liar. What do you think the chances are I will listen to anything you have to say? I have some news for you, you're mistaken. I have quite a bit of feeling for the work I create. Just because you may not doesn't mean others don't. If you think I'm wrong that's fine. What are the chances that I care what you think? :-)

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

As always, you are giving your own interpretation. I have never suggested you are a liar. How can we have any talk with you if are not interested in actually know what we are saying and yet want to reply.

To me it looks like troll.


What are the chances that I care what you think?

Yes, definitely trolling.

 

Angel Ortiz

11 Months Ago

amen again its a sub category of fine art, truly academic art are 7
architecture, poetry, music, theater, sculpture, dance, painting. thats it.
modern art is a sub category.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

Marcio - ROFLMAO! I'm not trolling. I'm replying to the things you are saying to me. Which are not making a lot of sense to me. This is what you said:

The only relation the artist has to his work is the final appearance and result and any other experience artists talk about are just lies.

I disagree. I have more relation to my work than the final appearance. And since I do experience other things, your words suggest I am a liar.

Just because I don't care what you think doesn't make me a troll. The fact that you keep addressing me could indicate you are one. But if you really think I'm trolling. please, report me. I'd love to hear the moderator's thoughts on this. And also, stop communicating with me. :-)



 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

Roseann, you have to contextualise what you quoted with all that I have said in this topic and with the rest of the text.

If you don't care what I think just ignore me. If you can't experience any difference between medias, as you have said, it doesn't mean I don't. If you can't see the difference in dynamic range from vinyl to CD it doesn't mean it is just me and just my opinion.

I am not saying you are a liar. What I am saying is that you don't consider others ideas, experiences and so on just because you can't see it. And even after saying that you don't understand, instead of asking or ignore you want argue against.

When you not contextualise ideas and text it is open for any interpretation. So add it on:

If I and my friend can't see it doesn't exist. Therefore I will not listen nor try to understand. And I will not ignore. I will ague against because everybody must know theses people are wrong.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

If you don't care what I think just ignore me. If you can't experience any difference between medias, as you have said, it doesn't mean I don't. If you can't see the difference in dynamic range from vinyl to CD it doesn't mean it is just me and just my opinion.

You can do the same, ignore me. I never said or implied that you don't experience any difference, but the way you stated it was because you don't, no one else does. Which is not true. Which is again, what you said about CDs. I will agree that the experiences are different for EVERYONE.

I am not saying you are a liar. What I am saying is that you don't consider others ideas, experiences and so on just because you can't see it. And even after saying that you don't understand, instead of asking or ignore you want argue against.

Actually, you really don't have any idea what I consider or experience, just as I don't know what you experience or consider. But the way your phrase your words has you speaking in absolutes for everyone and that is where I disagree.

If I and my friend can't see it doesn't exist. Therefore I will not listen nor try to understand. And I will not ignore. I will ague against because everybody must know theses people are wrong.

Again, you're speaking in absolutes that are untrue.

Sorry, I don't feel that if I can't see it, it doesn't exist. There are many things that may exist in this world that can't easily be explained but that doesn't mean they don't exist. When you speak the way you do in absolutes, you'll find many people won't listen. And it's not that I'm not trying to understand, you're not making sense, to me. So it's hard to understand what isn't being communicated well. Not to mention the fact that in this discussion, who else have I had an "argument" with? And where did I say everybody must know? Again, you're not making sense.

 

JC Findley

11 Months Ago

Forum rule number one......

1. Do not flame, abuse, or insult another user Arguments that go beyond reasonable debate will be removed from the forum and your membership could be be suspended or removed.

This would include calling another member a toll or saying they are trolling.

Please take some time to familiarize yourself with the forum rules here Marcio.... http://fineartamerica.com/showmessages.php?messageid=260080

 

Philip Sweeck

11 Months Ago

"Can you expand on, 'but only the form (or formlessness) of the expression?
I am interested in what you are saying here."


The 'form' of the expression would be: a painting, or a photograph, or a sculpture, etc. The painting, the photograph and the sculpture are not the expression itself but rather the vehicle through which the expression is being made, even though both can contain each other. A painting or photograph or sculpture are all self-contained, they can't escape their 'form', otherwise they would cease to be a painting, or a photograph or a sculpture. Though each can have different attributes, a small painting evokes a different response than a very large painting for example, similar with photographs and sculptures. Great art I think makes the form of the medium used almost invisible, not irrelevant but invisible, in that it's not about the marble in the sculpture, it's not about the paint in the painting, it's not about the silver in the photograph. Yes, to the artist it very much is all about the materials used or about the medium's specific form or 'texture', and their relation with the artist's intent or consciousness. But the artist has to transcend that very connection too, in order to make a connection with the idea being expressed through the materials. Digital doesn't have the same self-containment as the other media, it almost starts with a formlessness by default. Rather that starting with a concrete form ( as a medium, like the other do ) which must then be transcended, digital starts with a loose form which must then be made concrete. The transcendence is all the same, it's just one in the other direction. And I think that's why digital, when used effectively, is such an interesting medium to look back with or reflect and comment on all the other media as forms of reality, besides being a medium and 'reality' on its own. And we're only at the start of it.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

Not only do I think I followed that, I might even agree with it. Need to ponder it a bit more to be sure I understand it.

Very interesting. :-)

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

Thanks Philip,
I'm glad I asked you to expand on that it was worth it. :) falling asleep last night Dave joked about the many faces I have, the different expressions and then said the face tells you nothing really does it....I couldn't help but think yes!!!! Like a lump of chiselled marble, or a wonderfully brushstroked canvas....he had no idea that I was smiling to myself as I connected the idea of form with what he had just said. :))

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

I thought I would be banned for months but it looks like it was just for 1 or 2 days. :)

I wrote this to Philip privately while I couldn't reply here:

But you talk about media was precise and spot on.

A grate artist can transcend the message from any medium and size. A very good guitar player can play beautiful songs from any guitar. But his experience on playing acoustic guitar can be different than playing electric guitar or vice versa, so he will prefer to play the type of guitar he have better experience. He can feel more attached to one than the other and he may feel his message sound and feels better with one type of gutar sond than others.

Though you can make great art with any media and tools, some medias transmit better some message than others. Theather will always give you a much better experience when watching alive than watching in a TV screen, the same as opera. High dynamic range will always have more information and give more presence of the subject than flat sound or image. Street art will always be more interisting in a proper street wall than on a canvas in a gallery. Sure you can play folk music with eletronic bits and eletric gutar and make it sound great or even better than the original. But it will loose the folk and tradition feeling it doesn't matter how great musician you are.

And finally, it doesn't matter how great painter you are you can't smell the ink, the paper, the solvent and have the painting studio feeling from a computer. It doesn't means it is necessary to make art but for many art is not just something to make to get to an end but a kind of ritual and experience of creation.


And After his reply I answered it:

Yes, what is written for TV will always be better on TV and it is the same for any media. But the TV will never give you the theatre experience it doesn't matter how good is your TV or how good is the play on the TV. It can even be a perfect real 3D experience but only in the theatre you can have the theatre experience. It doesn't mean that TV are worst or better than theatre, but it means that if you want have the theatre experience you must go to theatre.

The sense of possibilities on digital is the same time attractive but also boring. A musician who play like Jimi Hendrix in a eletronic kyeboard can sond as good as someone who play o a eletronic guitar. But because eletronic kyeboard doesn't have this sense of challenging and limits it doesn't sound as impressive and interisting as the guitar player. It is just good.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

A grate artist can transcend the message from any medium and size. A very good guitar player can play beautiful songs from any guitar. But his experience on playing acoustic guitar can be different than playing electric guitar or vice versa, so he will prefer to play the type of guitar he have better experience. He can feel more attached to one than the other and he may feel his message sound and feels better with one type of gutar sond than others.

Though you can make great art with any media and tools, some medias transmit better some message than others. Theather will always give you a much better experience when watching alive than watching in a TV screen, the same as opera. High dynamic range will always have more information and give more presence of the subject than flat sound or image. Street art will always be more interisting in a proper street wall than on a canvas in a gallery. Sure you can play folk music with eletronic bits and eletric gutar and make it sound great or even better than the original. But it will loose the folk and tradition feeling it doesn't matter how great musician you are.

And finally, it doesn't matter how great painter you are you can't smell the ink, the paper, the solvent and have the painting studio feeling from a computer. It doesn't means it is necessary to make art but for many art is not just something to make to get to an end but a kind of ritual and experience of creation.


Now you're making sense. :-)

It is different for each of us. Some people require the smell of the materials and media and some don't. Each of us has a different ritual and experience when we create.

Yes, what is written for TV will always be better on TV and it is the same for any media. But the TV will never give you the theatre experience it doesn't matter how good is your TV or how good is the play on the TV. It can even be a perfect real 3D experience but only in the theatre you can have the theatre experience. It doesn't mean that TV are worst or better than theatre, but it means that if you want have the theatre experience you must go to theatre.

The sense of possibilities on digital is the same time attractive but also boring. A musician who play like Jimi Hendrix in a eletronic kyeboard can sond as good as someone who play o a eletronic guitar. But because eletronic kyeboard doesn't have this sense of challenging and limits it doesn't sound as impressive and interisting as the guitar player. It is just good.


I agree with the first half as when you see a play live in the theatre it is a different experience than when you see it on TV. But that makes sense to you and I, because that's how it is for you and I. But for someone else, it may not matter. To them, they saw it and that's all they care about.

See now this is where we differ. To you it's boring, to me it's exciting. Your example about Jimi Hendrix is not a good one. Electronic keyboard and electronic guitar are two completely different instruments that will never sound the same. Electronic guitar and acoustic guitar would make a better example. And again, this is also personal taste. To you digital is boring, limited and only good. To me it's exciting, limitless and fantastic; a great place to create in.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

I agree with the first half as when you see a play live in the theatre it is a different experience than when you see it on TV. But that makes sense to you and I, because that's how it is for you and I. But for someone else, it may not matter. To them, they saw it and that's all they care about.

It will be true doesn't matter if there are people who cares or not. For most people it doesn't matter the vinyl has higher dynamic range but it still will be true whatever they think. So there is not this talk of "for you", "for me", "for someone else". It is not opinion. Or it is or it is not. You can't transform everything in mere opinion.

My example is perfect and you can't transform it in mere opinion aether. Eletronic keyboards is completely different instrument from Guitar as canvas and ink are complete different from computer. It is just is. Not for me, not for you, it is and that's it.

What is personal are our experiences. And our experiences are different based on previous experiences, knowledge, tastes, type of works we all work on, etc. So that, digital is not boring or exciting. When I talk about excitement and boringness I am referring to challenging, sense of limits, knowledge excitement, etc. This is personal.

The thing is there are many people who are more interested on the comfort, on the easier (easier doesn't mean easy), on the faster result (faster doesn't mean fast), on the new look, on the accessible, when they make things. So this is amazing for the final result. The same way that you can have a amazing experience winning a racing video game against your friends. The important is not the creation but the result. On the other side, hearing about the material used on a work of art, how they overcome the dificulties, what was the chalanging, etc, is appealing. The same way as the story how was the results during a real race until win it. And it is not opinion. It is not just me or just somebody else. It just is. Doesn't matter if there are those who don't care and prefer have sport experiences only through video games.

And not everything is result. There are still many people there who want stories, who wants craft. So digital or any other media will be boring or exciting depending on what you are looking for to experience.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

It will be true doesn't matter if there are people who cares or not. For most people it doesn't matter the vinyl has higher dynamic range but it still will be true whatever they think. So there is not this talk of "for you", "for me", "for someone else". It is not opinion. Or it is or it is not. You can't transform everything in mere opinion.

Apparently it may have been true when CDs were first being made but according to the link below, it's no longer the case with Vinyl and CD sound. So, it appears it is a matter of opinion for you, but the facts no longer support that conclusion.

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/10/146697658/why-vinyl-sounds-better-than-cd-or-not

My example is perfect and you can't transform it in mere opinion aether. Eletronic keyboards is completely different instrument from Guitar as canvas and ink are complete different from computer. It is just is. Not for me, not for you, it is and that's it.

No, it is not perfect. A better analogy is for the electronic keyboard would be a piano. A better comparison for an electronic guitar would be an acoustic guitar. And being as Jimi Hendrix's music was created for the electronic guitar, it wouldn't sound right with any other instrument no matter what it was.

Yes, there is a difference between traditional media and digital, that was never a question.

What is personal are our experiences. And our experiences are different based on previous experiences, knowledge, tastes, type of works we all work on, etc. So that, digital is not boring or exciting. When I talk about excitement and boringness I am referring to challenging, sense of limits, knowledge excitement, etc. This is personal.

This I agree with.

The thing is there are many people who are more interested on the comfort, on the easier (easier doesn't mean easy), on the faster result (faster doesn't mean fast), on the new look, on the accessible, when they make things. So this is amazing for the final result. The same way that you can have a amazing experience winning a racing video game against your friends. The important is not the creation but the result. On the other side, hearing about the material used on a work of art, how they overcome the dificulties, what was the chalanging, etc, is appealing. The same way as the story how was the results during a real race until win it. And it is not opinion. It is not just me or just somebody else. It just is. Doesn't matter if there are those who don't care and prefer have sport experiences only through video games.

I'm not interested in just comfort, I'm interested in what I can do creatively and pushing my limits on what I can accomplish. I don't play any racing games, because being first doesn't always matter to me. Finishing it what matters. There are difficulties and challenges in creating digitally. Anyone who has extensive knowledge of working in digital media knows this. This is not a matter of opinion, it just is.

And not everything is result. There are still many people there who want stories, who wants craft. So digital or any other media will be boring or exciting depending on what you are looking for to experience.

This I don't understand. Are you saying there are no stories or craft to working digitally? Or are you saying that it's different for each of us based on what we want to experience?

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

As I said before... Just a troll.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

ROFLMAO! You might want to educate yourself. Someone is not a troll for disagreeing with you. Discussion and debate is not about agreeing with everything you hear. If you can't back up your words, not my problem.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

It is impossible that you didn't got the hole idea so you just are playing with my patience. You will be in this loop looking for excuse to argue against forever. No time to waist here.

Go argueing with somebody else because I am done.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

ROFLMAO!

Bye!

 

Philip Sweeck

11 Months Ago

Marcio, you seem to approach digital as if it's only a translation of other media, like vinyl translated to a digital format, or film translated to digital. No question there are differences in quality between the source analog medium and the digital 'translation' of it ( though with DSD, Direct Stream Digital, the original acoustic listening experience comes very close ). After all, 'vinyl' is not art either, it's just the format used to record the art on, which is music, and one can make digital music or non digital music. Either one way does not determine the quality of the art being made.

So you can't hold those recording differences against digital as an artistic medium in itself, which, as a medium to create art in has nothing to do with being more 'easy' or 'fast' or 'comfortable'.

The video below is a good example of the digital revolution ( as a distribution medium ). A guy in his room making music ( whether it's digitally or acoustically made isn't relevant to it being an experience of art ) and sharing it on youtube. When I stumbled on his videos and music I immediately bought the cd through his website. This wouldn't have been possible before this digital revolution.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

So he's basically a one man band? I wonder if we were just listening to this, no matter what it was on, if we would know it's only one person?

He's really good.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

No Philip, I don't see digital as a translation of others media though any media can be a translation of others medias. I just see that different expression or language are better expressed or transmitted on certain medias because each medias have their qualities and weakness. And of course medias can have their quality improved and so on. And Yeas, Vinyl is not art as the computer is not art (and the reproduced -copy- print may be seen as not art as well).

Yes, you can make digital or not digital music and eather way does not determine the quality of the art being made, depending of the message, language and so on. Because the language and expression of flamenco guitar player is better expressed on a guitar and not on electronic guitar or any other electronic machine that copies the guitar sound. Because it is not only about the sound it self but about the emotion and expression the guittar player put on the guitar strings which. The movement of playing guitar, drum, etc is not the same as playing electronic keyboard. Even though you can control all aspect of the sound on a electronic keyboard.

The medium is part of the art. You can't look only at the art and ignore the choose medium. Whas the medium choose because was the more accessible or because it part of the message expression?

About being easy, fast, comfortable. You can't deny that with a computer you don't have to go out to buy different kind of pencils, papers, canvas, inks, and others objects you want to use to create your art or to be part of your art. You don't risk to dirt your studio and have to clean all your tools and organise them to their place again, you don't need room to place your work, you only transfer your work to a physical medium when you want. The video you show here, the guy can play any instrument sounds and all at the same time on his own. He doesn't have to carry drums, change strings, he doesn't have to put in tune his keyboard. Therefore, digital is more comfortable, fast and easy to create in general. And it is not a problem at all. The thing is that watching the guy playing keyboard of cool. But if he was playing the same song with a band it would be even more enjoyable watch him playing his guitar, watch the drummer playing drum and so on, and like this my experience appreciating his exhibition and music would be better. Otherwise it is just a nice music. The less the limit the less it is impressing (and it is a general rule for anything).

PS: I am not holding recordings differences against digital as artistic medium. I have nothing against digital medium itself and digital art itself. The same way I have nothing against screen when I say that poetry and theatre, even when made for screen, they will be not as rich as poetry made for oratory or print, and theatre play made for theatre. In the screen you can make people fly and all things you can't do in theatre, and you can create the hole scene that you couldn't be so specific and direct in a poetry text. Yet, the theatre and poetry language is not the screen language, though you can find very good theatre play and poems on screen.

And I am not against photography when I say that Photography (film or digital) is called as Zumbi art for some people. Because it loses it on language for the general public. It becomes a copy of it's on old effects and expression. Or a copy of screen language. Therefore, photography is dead but is alive dead.


You will never, or barely be able to stop as many people to watch and enjoy the sound of a drum (which is a very limiting instrument) like this guy in the video, if you were playing it on a keyboard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW8-mBGpYEc

 

Vivian ANDERSON

11 Months Ago

Sums all this up nicely. Well said...Marcio


"The medium is part of the art. You can't only look at the art, and ignore the chosen medium".

 

Philip Sweeck

11 Months Ago

Marcio, but you are again seeing digital as only a translation of something else, when you say:


"You will never, or barely be able to stop as many people to watch and enjoy the sound of a drum (which is a very limiting instrument) like this guy in the video, if you were playing it on a keyboard: "


Maybe someone playing it on a digital synthesizer doesn't want and isn't interested in having the music played on a drum, and that's why he's playing it on a synthesizer and not a drum.

Like you say, the medium is part of the art.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

@Philip - Maybe someone playing it on a digital synthesizer doesn't want and isn't interested in having the music played on a drum, and that's why he's playing it on a synthesizer and not a drum.

Interesting observation. So, it's not a matter of what is fast, or easy but what the artist would like to work in/with? Just curious how do you feel about limits? Do you feel whether or not a person has limits determines how much you will be impressed by what they do?

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

Before I die :)))) I might one day find an instrument that I can play well..everything I have tried sounds like rubbish even when I put my heart and soul into it...so, why is that..? No digital piece of equipment can do it for me...sometimes I can find words, sometimes the camera helps, sometimes clay or paint, or textiles...and although I love what technology can do..allow me access to information, it doesn't make me a musician, or a singer. It is really interesting...why can we only express ourselves in certain ways through certain media ?
the artist, I feel, has to find the best way, that they think can help to express their art, technology has been phenomenal to some people with disabilities, computers can give people without speech an actual voice, I'd rather have a choice to speak like a robot than not at all...if the technology is there...to aid me...I think maybe technology, infact everything we use..is an aid to help us better express what we need/want to....some of that gear is art because it has been a creation of love....
best part of the video was how much the guy was enjoying making music..and I was so jealous :)))

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

Anyway, what I said is very clear.

If you guys want to go any deeper and asked Neil Postman he would say that the media is the message. And he explain how the media is the message and how the technology is the biggest ideology of all using the history of medias combined with the US history, through his book called "Amusing ourselves to death".

Have fun. ;)

 

Philip Sweeck

11 Months Ago

"Just curious how do you feel about limits? Do you feel whether or not a person has limits determines how much you will be impressed by what they do?"


There are no limits for the artist. Art, if it's truly art, is made in service of the mind, not in service of the craft.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

There are no limits for the artist. Art, if it's truly art, is made in service of the mind, not in service of the craft.

You should use this as quote on your site. I like it.

 

Roseann Caputo

11 Months Ago

@Maria - I'd rather have a choice to speak like a robot than not at all.

That's how I feel about creating art. I'd rather do it digitally than not at all. I'm a person who has limited options in the traditional world.

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

marcio...I agree technology does amuse people to death, its obsessive, compulsive and fun and educational...and many other things..but maybe..and it is only a maybe...maybe media is the messenger rather than the message...and nobody wants to shoot the messenger....for there must be some art in the messenger....but I have to agree that art is made in service of the mind..hang on does that mean that the mind is a messenger too....?

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

Maria, you have to read the book to actually know what he means by "amusing ourselves to death".

Of course art is in service of the mind, but the mind needs language to communicate. Languages needs grammar and depending on how you use the language your expression changes, the meaning changes, etc. Therefore you can't ignore the media used and the craft. They are part of the expression and message.

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

I would be interested to read the book, only then can I answer being properly informed of his perspective and experience. :) But, I have had a lot of experience with people who cannot/have not been able to communicate even with technology, it either wasn't around/affordable, accessible... We used sign language, art, body language, none of which relied on grammar or even sound. But, maybe you are only speaking about people who have language and have always relied on grammar to express their true, clear expressions.

I have seen through schools that I worked in how available information is to students now, if they want it, there is no excuse for not accessing it, but often experience is needed too, to understand the information, otherwise its just words, many don't have to learn how to spell, use grammar etc, Microsoft can do it for you. handwriting is becoming illegible as students write less and less, I'm at the point of thinking well, that's the way things are going, at least they are communicating in some form, does it really matter if they don't handwrite? As I said earlier, people I know who have cerebral palsy can now use a laser from a headband to type and express themselves, listen to a voice that they knew they had inside of them how amazing is that!? and freeing for that person. A piece of old fashioned chalk, determination, a love of words read to author of MY LEFT FOOT Christy Brown was all that he needed to eventually become a best selling author..read his books and poetry the movie is a must.
Don't know if I am going off track here..

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago


Sunday Visit
By Christy Brown

We finally found him
curled up in the chair like a many-wrinkled shell
staring blindly out at nothing
among a gathering of imbecilic fossils
his one good eye fastening fiercely onto life
the hair still sturdy though silver under the old cloth cap.

We finally found him
through all that terrible labyrinth of grey concrete cells
quietly rounding out his days
alone in a morass of moronic camaraderie
his doomed cellmates snoozing and snoring all around
and he with his one good eye defying the shadows.

The tears came then
not soft, but real
the tears of a real man broken by life
groping wildly with gnarled fingers at the straws of life
in that awful room of no life
and the television set blaring forth its banalities
drowning whatever words of comfort our futile tongues could offer.

I had no words for him
no words to span the heartbreak of years
when Samson-like he had stood between us and chaos
bringing to us the small rare trinkets of his love.
I had for him only whiskey
the old bitter gift
the poor tribute of one poorer in spirit
than that jaded near-blind half-deaf soul reclining so tamely
in a wicker chair
in a ward of fearful paralysing resignation
a ward full of already dead people
sleeping as the television blared.

Yet the hand that gripped mine spelled out love
and the raw lovely courage of that old landscaped face
put my feeble pity to shame


My response.

A piece of chalk
fighting, loving family talk
freed
the beautiful service of the mind
from a determined soul
one piece of chalk
A couple of toes
opened the floodgates
released the prisoned woes
grammar came later
aided by technology
and a beautiful
soul was spread across the pages
and screen
for a dumbfounded world
to be seen.

Maria Disley 2/10/2013

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

Well, when I say language and grammar I don't only mean the spoke or writen language but any kind of language including visual and sounds too.

But what you say about the computer correcting your words and grammar is interesting and a good example too.
For example, if you just have to write a message to inform somebody to something not personal nobody cares if you know spell or grammar rules as far as they get the message and the computer correct it for you. What matters here is the final result. And the computer is easier, faster, convenient to send all the message through e-mail.

But if you have to informe about something more personal? A love letter, an invitation to your wedding, etc? You want to express your feeling about the message and the event through the media. You will then choose a special typo, background colour or image, reorganise the text body in a nice composition, and choose appropriate words.

But you feel even more special and you appreciate even more the message when you receive a letter hand written (some how it makes the message even more important), when you can see the feelings and expression on the handwrite, the task to don't make any mistake with wrong spelling or word to don't make the letter ugly, admire the grammar and spelling skills. This all matters and influence the meaning of the message in any type of art and media. Otherwise nobody would care to worry about formal letters, how to write a Curriculum Vitae, the proper way to speed in different situation, and so on.

Even though you can use digital to replace traditional medias, when you do you change the meaning too. And most artists use digital as replacement without think about it, and not as choice to the meaning they want to express.

Art, after all, is communication and expression.

 

Maria Disley

11 Months Ago

I suppose there is some truth in the fact that we knowingly or not, for ease, compromise what we want to communicate...unless we are intent on giving the exact meaning to the receiver. Some people I have asked say that they put more into an email because they can work faster by typing. ..when I asked does that affect the quality of the communication they said no, that the quality is just as good or better because they can say more. if that makes sense...that was from a speech pathologist.

 

Marcio Faustino

11 Months Ago

Every media have its qualities. The fact that you can work faster make you able to add more to your work before you get enough of it. The same way you can watch a TV documentary and get much more information or even learn a new subject from 20min up to 1h more or less. While you can do the same with book, when book try to be as fast, easy to get and fast facts and scenes to entretain, it gets shalow and annoying. So you would enjoy more get the same on a TV screen.

So you use the most apropriate language and expression (it means the media language and expression) for the media you choose to transmit the message on its best way. And you choose the media based on the message, and on the expression you want give to it.

 

Philip Sweeck

10 Months Ago

Just read this article, digital art being auctioned, and digital not only as the process used but also as the end form or way of distribution:


"Lindsay Howard, the auction's curator, used a broad definition of digital art to include works by artists inspired by the inner workings of computers or the Internet, as well as those who use the web as a distribution platform. Some of the works are static images, while others morph on their own, or change in response to input from the viewer. Still others are physical objects created or inspired by technology.

Digital artists already are commanding significant prices and attention from the contemporary-art world. An untitled inkjet-printer painting by Wade Guyton fetched $1.1 million at Christie's in February. Cory Arcangel, whose work includes computer-generated projects, video, music composition and sculpture, had a solo show at the Whitney Museum of American Art in 2011.

Others have built their audiences online through sites such as Tumblr, which has become a popular platform for artists to present their work. Some are even using Tumblr as their medium of choice, said Annie Werner, Tumblr's arts evangelist."


"At one point, digital art was a sort of niche," said Michael Connor, editor and curator of Rhizome. "But it is now so ubiquitous, it has thoroughly invaded the contemporary art landscape. It is also pushing contemporary art in new directions."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304713704579091192929676208.html

 

Carmen Hathaway

10 Months Ago

Great thread Philip ...

Re * 'the medium is the message' -- Postman connected his work to that of Canadian communication theorist Marshall McLuhan -- who coined the phrase 'the medium is the message' which segued into the book The Medium is the Massage: An Inventory of Effects (1967)

Article link:What is the Meaning of The Medium is the Message?

*Marcio's reference in earlier post

 

This discussion is closed.