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Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

Annoyances While Working

I know we've discussed this topic before but I find people's "working stories" to be interesting.

Most of you know I post a lot of freighter photos because I'm in a town where they regularly pass by. I've never really had an issue photographing them because there's nothing in the way, really, except the occasional boater close to shore. Well, last night I went down there to grab a new one, and instead I got three going through one after the other and two that actually passed each other. In the meantime, there is a park by the boardwalk where they hold concerts with a portable stage on Friday nights, so there was a crowd down there, and there were boaters out on the river listening to the music. I already had to take off my shoes and leave them on a park bench because of the wash and the high water level, then I was trying to shoot the new freighter coming north, at the same time as another one was coming south.

So here I'm running along the boardwalk trying to get clean shots with no blurry boats right in my way, I'm trying to shoot two freighters at once, and a guy starts talking to me "You getting anything good?". I'm trying to be polite so I said "I collect these" trying to keep it short. Meanwhile I'm swinging my camera from north to south to get my usual angles on both ships all while trying to avoid the pleasure craft up next to the boardwalk. I will say one guy saw me struggling and moved his boat for me.

Anyway, this guy keeps talking and asking me questions, while I'm desperately trying to catch these things and get my detail shots and a shot of them passing each other, and I'm still answering him, and I don't remember what I said, but I was trying to concentrate at the same time. My daughter was watching all this and she was laughing when I sat back down, because she could tell I was frazzled. I felt like yelling "I'M WORKING HERE, WILL YOU PLEASE SHUT UP?"

Long story short, I had to ditch a few shots because, talk about a crooked horizon line, several shots looked like these ships were climbing a mountain or rappelling down the other side....

What are your working stories? Even painters painting in public must have some of these. I would think it would be worse for those doing traditional art outdoors because people will probably stop and stare over your shoulder. At least people can't see what's on my viewfinder and the little digital screen while I'm working.

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DK Digital

11 Days Ago

I haven't done it in a while, but I used to sketch at car shows a lot, I can't tell you how many times the owner of the car got in it and drove off while I was in mid-sketch. Almost as bad is when another car comes in and parks in front of the one I'm sketching. For the most part people have left me alone while sketch or painting in public, probably because I'm a big guy that looks kind of scary. lol The biggest annoyance while trying to paint outdoors is wind. I've had oil paintings blown over and get covered in crud, pastel pallets blown over (now that's a mess to clean up!) and more.

 

Chuck Staley

11 Days Ago

I can't work with another human in the room. Anyone's presence bothers me. Even the robot vacuum distracts me.

I like silence. The sound of silence is bliss.

I like my coffee hot. Cream. No sugar.

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

Yeah, David, the wind was the first thing that came to mind with traditional media. I had enough trouble getting oil paintings back from class when I was taking classes. Of course the easel had a clasp on it, but still.....

Cleaning up pastels in the grass, or the dirt, that would be fun....NOT.

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

LOL, Chuck

I can edit with people in the room. That doesn't bother me, but holding a conversation while shooting a moving object is not my strong suit, apparently. Next time that happens, I'll ignore it. I've had people ask me before about the ships when they see me shooting them, but they have the presence of mind not to expect me to engage in a conversation while I'm in the middle of it.

 

Bill Tomsa

11 Days Ago

You're right, plein air painters have tons of stories.

One of my favorite stories occurred is when I was painting on a street in Boothbay Harbor, one of my regular places to plein air paint when we lived in Maine.

I always start out with a canvas toned overall with a reddish orange wash so I'm not starting on a white canvas. I then start blocking in shapes loosely with red paint to get the composition and shadow pattern down before I start adding other colors.

I'm very comfortable with spectators watching me paint and sometimes ask questions. Apparently two women came by in their van at this beginning "red stage" and then left.

About 2 hours latter, as I was in the final stage of the full color painting, these same two women in the van showed up again and stopped behind me. As I turned and saw them for the first time, the lady behind the wheel said to me, "Thank god. When we saw the painting earlier my friend said to me, 'Poor fellow. He must be color blind.'"

I had all I could do to keep from bursting out in laughter!

https://fineartamerica.com/featured/uphill-art-by-bill-tomsa-bill-tomsa.html

Bill Tomsa

https://bill-tomsa.pixels.com

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

LOL, that's funny, Bill! Apparently those people never heard of "under painting". I was a traditional oil painter for a time, but I never did under painting, but at least I know it when I see it LOL.

And thanks, I couldn't think of the phrase "plein air" (and I speak French), and I was too lazy to look it up.

 

Bill Tomsa

11 Days Ago

DK, I have the same problem when I'm sketching on the street and there is a vehicle involved! ALWAYS the owner shows up and drives away halfway thru my sketch. I try to solve the problem by always having my camera at hand so I can take a shot of the subject BEFORE I start sketching. :O)

Mary B. " I had enough trouble getting oil paintings back from class.... " I never have that problem as I paint exclusively in acrylics which so many people lament "drys too quickly" but I find is a positive attribute since I'm prone to dropping my paintings. LOL

Bill Tomsa

https://bill-tomsa.pixels.com

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

Well, that's a good reason to paint in acrylics LOL. I tried to make the transition but I'm (or I was, I should say), a serious "blender", so I just couldn't put up with the "10 minutes to stiff" properties, and I never tried the "extenders"...by that point I was firmly addicted to the camera.

 

DK Digital

11 Days Ago

"I never have that problem as I paint exclusively in acrylics which so many people lament "drys too quickly" but I find is a positive attribute since I'm prone to dropping my paintings."

How do you paint outdoors with acrylics in Arizona? Even in northern Utah the air is so dry I decided it was impossible unless you go to great measures that make it way too much of a hassle. I swear, if it was hot and a little breezy the paint would half dry on my brush before I could even get it to the panel from the palette, and the paint on the palette would dry in a few minutes even with near constant misting with water.

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

I would be curious too, David. I know if you don't keep the brushes in water and clean them immediately....well, I kind of ruined some of my nice oil brushes trying out acrylics.

 

Abbie Shores

11 Days Ago

Sketching at the local country park.

Couple hover around me but can't get behind me because the bench I'm on is backing onto a bush

After 30 seconds I look up and ask if they wanted to sit down, that I'm happy to move, (I'm not but hey ho)

They ask if they can look at the drawing, then ask a ton of questions on why I'm sketching a wonky tree.... (the lighting was amazing......

WAS)

Then they do the thing EVERYONE does.

Our daughter is an artist....

Blah blah blah

I'm going to be really honest now guys, I'm sorry, but I'm seriously NOT INTERESTED in other family members.

I'm not interested in their art degree,
or how well they are doing in London.

I don't give a monkeys bottom about their last show.

Just because I'm sketching does not make me a listener or even a very nice person.....

I'M WORKING and I was enjoying the solitude and the complete immersion in dreams of being the next Monet....!

I don't know you.
I don't want to know you!

And now my light has gone. The sun took the opportunity to stop that gorgeous sparkling stream through the branches, flashing on the top of the....(RATS).... now dull, pale, daffodils.

And...I hate you.
So much.

No, I say grabbing my stuff up and scrunching it into my tote bag...... you sit here. I was finished anyway and I stalk back to the car growling..............

 

Patricia Strand

11 Days Ago

Ah, yes. I think that would be annoying, Mary! I would love to try and paint outdoors, but I think it would almost be an invitation for people to stop by and look. I'll just stick to painting in my kitchen for now, lol. I've been out photographing a lot, and luckily nobody has ever interrupted me outside if I'm taking photos. If that happened, I would answer maybe twice, then nothing more would come out of my mouth. The thing that always annoys me, though, is music. I don't go near music venues. I know, that's weird! Hah.

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

LOL, tell us how you REALLY feel, Abbie.

Actually, it's jealousy. People who are not artists in any way want to be artists. At least in my experience they do, so they are trying to impress you because they are jealous of you....but, yeah, that is annoying.

I USUALLY have the opposite experience. I see photographers down at the river shooting the freighters and we get into conversations about what freighter ran aground or hit the pier at the Soo locks, etc. I learn a bit that way.

But this guy.....I SHOULD have ignored him. Even the 'skew' function in Photoshop couldn't fix some of them.

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

Patricia, I was just amazed at how many people were sitting close together not masked. But we stayed a couple hundred feet away from the crowd. I was just dealing mostly with the people just drifting along in their boats right next to the boardwalk. THAT was annoying too, but I should have done what you do and ignore the other guy after my first couple of answers.

 

Lois Bryan

11 Days Ago

oh heck yeah I've got annoyances. how come is it that when I'm really really really into an image the clock goes into hyperdrive and suddenly it's 2:30 in the flippin' morning??????

sheesh.

 

Bill Tomsa

11 Days Ago

DK Digital, I lost count of how many times other painters have asked me how I paint plein air with acrylic paints in Arizona.

Not to make this an image thread, but if you'll forgive me Abbie, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Or at least equal to two words...spray bottle.

Buy Art Online

I carry two of these in my backpack when I paint outdoors and simply spray my palette every few minutes when I'm in the arid desert air.

I started carrying a back up when I dropped my one and only and cracked it thus pretty much ending my painting session. Live and learn.

Bill Tomsa

https://bill-tomsa.pixels.com

 

Lois Bryan

11 Days Ago

Not being a traditional painter anymore, I'm just curious ... why paint outside? I mean, you know ... bugs? Sweat? And the aforementioned peeps?? Perverts? Dogs? (btw I love dogs.) Bugs? Gang members? Angry farmers with pitch forks? Did I mention bugs?

The mind positively boggles.

Take a snap ... paint from the snap? No? If no, why not?

 

Abbie Shores

11 Days Ago

Lois

The light. You can't get the same light in a photo. Shadows and light are a large part for most Plein air painters I know

 

DK Digital

11 Days Ago

Bill, like I mentioned I do spray, but I can't spray enough to keep up, just too much hassle. I just sketch now, or paint with pastels.

Lois, as great as photos are they lie. Cameras just don't see the way the human eye sees. Also, there's just something special about the direct response to the subject right in front of you that you just don't get from painting from a photograph.

 

Lois Bryan

11 Days Ago

Abbie and David ... I hear ya. I am awed by what I see with my old-lady eyes ... even now. And I try like the dickens to capture what I see ... but I always think it's the scope and magnitude of the scene that I fail to capture. The depth and breadth of the landscape, for example. But I hear ya. I do. It may be one reason why I'm constantly fiddling with my stuff ... always enhancing and noodling ... trying to recapture what my mind remembers.

Still. Bugs. Hungry, hungry bugs.

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

I can vouch for the camera not seeing what we see. I'm constantly editing to give the "impression" of what I saw, not the reality of it, which means going in the other direction and making it "more than what it really is" with the contrast and color. Not to the point of being garish (at least I hope not), but so it covers what I was feeling when I saw it in the first place.

Another thing that really annoys me as a photographer is when the sun is in the exact wrong spot for a closeup so that when you have to position yourself, your subject is in your shadow. But that's just mother nature being a tease.

EDIT - we "cross" typed, Lois. I LOVE what you do with your photos. That's not really in my talent range, and my personal working preference, but your stuff is beautiful. And I agree about the bugs. I slather on the "off botanicals" when I go to the hiking trail this time of year.

 

DK Digital

11 Days Ago

Lois, I'm guessing bugs are a bigger problem where you live. As long as I stay away from wetland near dusk (mosquitos) and apply repellant bugs aren't really a problem here. My challenges more involve the weather more than anything, (my guess is Bill was to watch out for scorpions). Too hot, too cold, windy, etc, or simply finding a place to park where you want to paint. Rural areas have narrow roads with no shoulders, and parking in front of the gate to a field (typically the only wide spot on the road) can get you in trouble.

 

Mary Bedy

11 Days Ago

David, that's why on the odd occasion I go out looking for old barns on back roads, I put the zoom on so I can shoot from way back and not have a farmer up in my face with his shotgun.....

 

DK Digital

11 Days Ago

That's why I usually just take photos as well Mary, assuming I'm not blocking any traffic by stopping in the middle of the road to take a photo!

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Carmen Hathaway

11 Days Ago

 
I tend to take 'annoyances' in stride -- unless violence is implied.

People generally 'get' me -- it's a kind of chemistry/vibe -- call it what you will.

Or, maybe it's that Cheshire grin of mine. It can make me 'invisible'. Or at least -- my audience even more so.   ;)     LOL

 

https://carmenhathaway.com

 

Mary Bedy

10 Days Ago

LOL, Abbie it is pretty self-explanatory.

Mel, I hear that. I used to go off looking for old barns and that was my "purpose" for the day. Then every interesting barn I would find would be backlit and not in anywhere near the lighting I would need so I usually ended up shooting weed in the ditches.

I'm not a wildlife photographer - don't have the patience, but thank the heavens I had my zoom with me in the hiking trail earlier this summer when a pack of five baby raccoons showed up foraging for slugs in the underbrush. They didn't seem to mind me being there, as I crept closer (mom was nowhere to be found, thankfully), and I finally took the time to change to the zoom and got some cute shots of them. A couple of them even approached me but I backed off since I figured that wasn't such a good idea...the point being, I usually only take one lens with me depending on what I intend to do because it's easier on my shoulders.

 

Edward Fielding

10 Days Ago

If it was easy, everyone could do it.

 

Andrea Lazar

10 Days Ago

I just spot read a few of these and particularly Abbie's since people referred to it.
Now I am wondering if I ever struck up a conversation like that thinking I was just being friendly and supportive and not realizing I was being intrusive and annoying!
I don't remember any time, but seeing this - I will never, ever do that, ever!
Happy outdoor work to everyone -
Andrea

 

Bradford Martin

10 Days Ago

Mary it is far worse in Florida, where there are tourists everywhere that want in on the action but don't even know what you are doing. So many times I have wanted to say I "I'M WORKING HERE, WILL YOU PLEASE SHUT UP?"

Once I was on a walk with hundreds of butterflies all around. People would ask me if why I picked that one. "Is it special? I don't see it. Which one are you photographing? Getting any good shots? No? Why?
BECAUSE YOU KEEP SCARING THEM OFF THAT'S WHY!

My favorite question to not answer is "Are you a wildlife photographer?"

Another is in the last seconds of a launch countdown. "You look like you know what's going on. Which way is the rocket going to take off." Like I am supposed to stop looking in my lens to answer! I want to say " just look where I am pointing my big telephoto lens and leave me alone.

 

Jeffrey Kolker

10 Days Ago

Digital! Don't have to worry about the mess or wind, etc.

The worse thing that has happened is after working a LONG time, the power went out.

 

Mike Savad

10 Days Ago

@bradford - you could just -- its going up.

if they ask - why is that butterfly special? you can say, this butterfly owes me money, and this is how we are worked it out.


----Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

 

Mary Bedy

10 Days Ago

LOL, Mike

That's interesting about the rocket, Bradford. You would think they would figure it out looking at where you are pointing the lens....Oh well there ARE a lot of not so bright people around. Sigh.

 

M G Whittingham

10 Days Ago

Funny how when people talk about annoyances, no one mentions losing the light......

 

Mary Bedy

10 Days Ago

I believe Abbie did, M G. Yeah I often go down to the river to shoot a freighter just before dusk and being on the east side of the state, the lighting is wonderful just then because the ships are lit up really well, but a lot of times there's cloud cover that moves in right when the ship gets in shooting range, then clears up after it passes. Drives me crazy.

 

Doug Swanson

10 Days Ago

It's birds. In most of my life, I'm fine with birds and enjoy seeing them, but if I'm using a camera, there seems to be some sort of magnetic attraction. While I'm aiming my shot, and push the button, somehow a bird manages to fly past, right in my field. Yeah, it's possible to edit them out, but it's never quite right. And, just who says it makes sense that there are feathered, warm-blooded reptile-like creatures that can fly? Any WHY are they drawn to MY shots?

 

Mary Bedy

9 Days Ago

Ok, Doug, just saw this. That's just weird! I've heard of a few people who draw lightning to themselves and have been struck more than once, but drawing birds into your photos? Are you sure it's not the spirit of Alfred Hitchcock following you around and causing this?

 

Chance Kafka

9 Days Ago

I have a couple major annoyances that always tend to just be circumstantial and not actually related to other people.

One of my biggest is trying to shoot a landscape at sunset, when the golden light is lighting up everything - and getting my own shadow in it facing east. It is just about impossible sometimes to alter the composition and eliminate my shadow and it still look right, so then I have to wait for the foreground to completely fall into shadow but then it is lacking that golden luster I wanted before. I could edit out my shadow if I really wanted to but I don't like to edit things out like that.

Another is simply losing the light as others have said. I've taken trips where I want to be in two places at once and shoot the sunset and the lighting on the landscape but it's impossible. And I can't exactly go back out the next day because there's no guarantee the clouds and lighting will be as good and I have to travel home the next day anyway so I only have one day. There is not enough time to get from point A to Point B in time to get sunset shots so I have to decide which place I will go well before sunset and which place I will go after. And the place I go well before sunset never turns out as interesting.

Also along this line, simply planning out a trip to a particular spot banking on a great sunset and then it being a big disappointment. If I have going out and shooting the sunset in mind, I start looking at the clouds about 2 hours before sunset to see if it could set up for a good sunset. One time, I drove 45 minutes away because it was looking like the clouds would set up for a great sunset, but they ended up moving over the horizon and it was very gray and dull. (The best sunsets are when there are clouds to the west that start way up in the sky and seem to stretch so far out they nearly touch the horizon, but there is actually a clear gap right on the horizon. If the clouds are thick enough to totally obscure the horizon, the light can't refract right because the clouds on the horizon line are obscuring the light from hitting the clouds you can see, and there is seldom any color). Other times, I have driven far out to a location and found the clouds totally dispersed. This is slightly better than the really heavy gray clouds but a sunset during a cloudless day is still pretty boring.

Getting great shots tends to take a lot of planning and timing it perfectly but there is only so much you can do. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. So one of the things I like about painting is being in control of what's happening.

As far as people are concerned, I tend to stay away from areas were there are a ton of people. I've never gotten nervous out in nature, because even when there are a lot of people they're all just hiking or photographing too, but in urban settings I do feel unsettled about lugging a nice camera around and feel it kind of makes me a target for thievery, so I just don't do a lot of urban scenes unless I can park my car somewhere, step right out of it and step right back in. And in the most photogenic areas (i.e. downtowns, university campuses, etc) they are the kind of places you have to park in a garage or meter and then walk a mile. I guess that is an annoyance - feeling rather unsafe doing more urban photography. I have always intended to get a cheap point and shoot for these types of shots, one where it's not as big of a target and if some jerk does steal it it's not the end of the world, but I never seem to get around to it.

 

M G Whittingham

9 Days Ago

Chance - try squatting. It will change the shape of your shadow enough that most people won't recognize it as a person.

You can also try turning sideways. It hides the arms and your two legs will look like one. Sometimes that works.

 

Mary Lee Dereske

9 Days Ago

What amazed me about your story was not the annoyances, but the very fact that people were talking to you and gathering to listen to music! My first thought was "Wow, where is that happening????" Even my neighbors on morning walks are keeping distant and barely talking. I can't imagine a stranger would be so bold to talk (through their mandatory mask) to a photographer right now. So I looked at your bio and saw Michigan...oh yes, Michigan. My home state. I am amazed when I talk to my Michigan friends and they mention going to funerals and weddings. I am in New Mexico where gatherings indoors or out of more than 5 people is taboo, masks are mandatory in public spaces and quarantine is required when you come from out of state.
So, no current work annoyances to report here.
But yes, I've had similar situations in the past and hope to have them again in the future. I miss "normal" annoyances.

Oh yeah...and losing the light. I hate when that happens. Just happened to me 2 nights ago. Black sky and golden hills, then I grabbed the camera and the golden hills were gone.

 

Mary Bedy

9 Days Ago

Chance, next time you're shooting that sunset here's a suggestion. Like MG said maybe squat, but how about you set your timer for 10 seconds then lie down on the ground, so your shadow is actually not in the shot?

I can't remember when I've driven long distance only to have lousy weather, but I'm sure it has happened.

Mary, most people here are wearing masks because it's mandatory inside businesses, but once they get inside, a lot of them pull the mask down off their nose, or even just let it hang off their chin. I just try to stay away from them completely. Down on the boardwalk, even with that many people, it's generally easy to socially distance. The guy that was talking to me never got closer than at least seven feet, so at least he had that presence of mind.

I'm voting in our primary tomorrow (in person), and if the parking lot is full, I'll just come back later. Small town and two poling areas, so the last time I voted in an off election, there was only one other person in there.

 

Toby McGuire

9 Days Ago

Chance I hate it too when I'm shooting night shots in the city and no matter what I do I get a tripod shadow in my shot because of the lights coming from every direction. I usually use the technique of the timer then I get my own shadow out of the way but there is the issue of the tripod shadow.

 

DK Digital

9 Days Ago

Today my annoyance is a great deal of noise and vibrations coming from the construction project next door while I'm editing images at my computer. Ever since the earthquake in April vibrations make me jumpy, you'd think I'd be over it by now.

 

Lisa Kaiser

8 Days Ago

I have had a couple of annoyances. Chance, my shadow has gotten in my way many times.

One time I was demonstrating my painting process at my gallery. The gallery was full and people were high energy laughing and drinking wine, water, sodas, and eating brownies and cookies. My friend joyfully picked up a paint brush and ruined my painting which made me laugh as I corrected the work, and another person wrecked my work and I corrected it again. I was having fun.

And then the annoyance happened.

A small crowd came in with a man and his brief case. They interrupted my demo which was fine but he opened his brief case to show me drawings that he believed would be awesome in our gallery. He and his small family pleaded with me to let him hang and sell in the Gallery Underground and that changed the environment of joy completely.

His drawings were excellent and I had to change my demo and talk about how to get into a gallery. Talent by no means is the way as hundreds of artists have talent and skill. I explained that all Gallery art must be framed and ready to hang, it must be juried in and even before that an opening must occur which happens frequently as not all artist's art sells.

Anyhow, I gave him ample examples on how he could have opportunities to hang his art around our city if he simply joined the art groups within our city.

He was persistent at telling me that the lady that owned the building said he could show his art there...and I know she didn't because she is my boss and told me how my gallery was to be run. She is very rule oriented and a certain number of sales must clear every month.

So in a nutshell, all was good until this very desperate gentleman got the wrong idea about how to approach a gallery and I noticed how the fun crowd slipped away.

 

Lisa Kaiser

8 Days Ago

Mary, I get people who talk to me at my day job while I'm in the middle of a calculation. They have no respect that some calcs, although done in excel, take a great deal of attention or they're wrong. Most of my calcs even done in excel take a good hour's work and it annoys me to no end to be interrupted by a lazy coworker.

 

Toby McGuire

8 Days Ago

The best you can do sometimes is position your shadow in a way that will be easy to clone out later.

 

DK Digital

8 Days Ago

Speaking of shadows, reflections can be rather annoying as well, especially when photographing cars. I'm not interested in self portraiture so I have to make liberal use of the smudge tool. Yes, shadows get in the way of photographing cars as well. I often have to stand back and zoom in to keep my shadow out.

 

Lisa Kaiser

8 Days Ago

That is so true David. Also photo shooting paintings behind glass is very difficult as far as reflections.

 

Mary Bedy

8 Days Ago

Toby, that's true about the shadow. I completely forgot about the tripod shadow. Oh well.

Lisa, I hate that when someone just doesn't have a clue and they kind of ruin the atmosphere of what's happening. It does sound like he was desperate.

David, reflections are best taken care of with a polarizing filter. Just rotate until there is no reflection, however I only have one for my wide angle, I need to buy one eventually for my zoom. They DO come in handy in that case.

 

DK Digital

8 Days Ago

Mary, I just use a point and shoot, I don't have any filters. I'm not really a photographer, more of a photo artist, I just take photos as material to play with on the computer, occasionally I get lucky and the photo is actually pretty good as is.

 

Chance Kafka

8 Days Ago

I haven't had enough time to come back in and read all this but I do offer thanks to all those who made some suggestions about my shadow ruining images

 

Mary Bedy

8 Days Ago

David, I got news for you. For every photo I post, I take about 100 more, now that I don't have to worry about film costs.

Chance, I completely forgot about the tripod shadow. DUH.

 

Mary Bedy

8 Days Ago

Lisa, I just saw your excel comment. Yeah, I can relate to that.

I do a lot of proofreading for work, and if I get interrupted, I often have to start over. Sometimes it's highly technical stuff and I have to check the numbers, etc., so when I get distracted, it makes me tense. Can't remember where I left off, etc.

 

This discussion is closed.